Who Should Have The Right To Vote?
I am not a UK resident, I haven’t lived there for 5 years, and as such don’t really care too much about the general elections.
Is that a terrible thing?
Maybe it is, but as a none resident who doesn’t pay taxes in the UK I consider it to be your country for you to decide how it should be run and not really any of my business.
And yet I still have a vote.
What I’m going to do with that vote I am as yet undecided. Part of me thinks I should do nothing, it’s none of my business. Another part of me feels it should be used, as voting, especially the hard won right for women to vote, is important. But as you vote for local candidates and I don’t have a local borough, what right do I have to have a hand in how someone else’s town is run?
I don’t pay taxes there.
I have no real interest in how the country or the local boroughs are run.
Their policing, schooling, how they spend their taxes and what-have-you don’t affect me as anything other than an occasional tourist. So why is it that I can vote when people like Heather, of Eggs Cream & Honey fame, who has been living there for 20 years and would love the chance to have a say, can’t?
To my mind that isn’t right at all.
Surely anyone that pays taxes in a country ought to be entitled to a say in how it is run, how those taxes are spent? And surely anyone that doesn’t live there, that has moved away and pays their taxes to a foreign country, should lose the right to have any say in how the country works and how other peoples’ taxes are spent?
What do you think? Should imigrants have a vote? Should expats still be allowed to vote? Are you planning to vote yourself?
And what in the hell should I do with my vote? Is is really any of my business any more?
This post was inspired by the fabulous MrsW from Clinically Fed Up, and also by these lovely ladies, Heather from Eggs Cream and Honey, Very Bored in Catalunya and Vegemitevix. Thank you for the interesting chat this morning ladies.
I'm Heather, an expat Brit living in Kuusamo, northern Finland.
Well, when I lived abroad I was happy to vote – I knew I was going back. And I now vote in the US (I'm a dual national) partly because I am ONLY going back if things change there (which they look like doing fortunately). As a dual national, I see myself also as a potential dual resident.
In the UK European nationals can vote in local elections and European elections and Commonwealth citizens can vote in local and national elections. So we do pretty well in the residents-but-not-citizens voting stakes.
It does seem utterly ludicrous – but of course the right to vote here has nothing to do with whether you pay taxes, it's to do with being a British citizen. If it was based on how much tax you pay then housewives (including SAHMS) without income would lose the right to vote and I think we'd all agree that would be crazy. So as long as you're a citizen you can vote and I can't see how they would do it any other way. I think it's important to remember that oting isn't just about who decides how our taxes are spent, it's about the way the country is run – political ethos.
In answer to your other question, Man of the House is a New Zealander with residency here so he votes here and in NZ (by proxy).
Definitely can identify with this post! Have lived in Germany for 9 years now, and am not planning on returning to the UK any time soon. Yet I have the right to vote there. On the one hand, I always have been a great believer in voting whenever you have the right to do so, but on the other hand, I have always tried to do so wisely, and I'm really not sure that I am anywhere near up-to-date when it comes to UK politics. Plus, as you say, it's not really any of my business any more. Ironically, I am not allowed to vote in german general elections, despite the fact that I pay my taxes here etc.
As an french expat, I still get to vote for certain elections ie presidential, european and any referendums (don't get many of these though). The electoral system works differently in France, The President is directly elected by the people. The assembly is elected by French people living in France only. I have to say I don't bother with the European elections but I still go and vote for the Presidential ones. I still like to vote for it because nearly 8 years ago, the Front National (a extreme right nationalist party) got to the secound round of presidential elections and I don't want a repeat of that. Although I voted, it doesn't mean my candidate got elected but at least I believe I have earned the right to criticize the Napoleon like, media crazed, height challenged idiot who's running my homeland now.
As a European citizen I am entitled to vote in Ireland for any local election. And the way the electoral system is here (much like the UK), it means that I actually get to vote for who I want in the government here. So I suppose I get the best of both worlds to a point.
I don't know if you can do that with UK votes, but in France, you can 'spoil' your vote, by not putting any paper in the envelope, or writing / scribbling on the ballot paper. That way you still exercise your right to vote (right that as you say people, especially women, had to fight for) but you don't vote for anybody?
I'm quite narked by the situation really as I don't think I'm entitled to vote either. I have my leave to remain but it is time limited (until Feb 2011) when I will need to apply for residency/citizenship. For me it's just another way of feeling l'autre, as if I'm an intruder in this society.
Wow, you knocked this up quickly…
I think that ex pats should have a say, although thanks to that blumming volcano and the lack of postal service to the UK I am too late in getting my registration form sent, so no voting for me this time. As 99% of our customers come from the UK, we have an interest in how the country is being run. Plus, I would like to go back at some time.
However the day to day things such as police, health care, education have no relevance to me but do to residents in the UK. If you pay taxes or are married to a UK citizen then you should be able to have a say in who is spending your money (taxes) and how.
Here, in Finland I can vote in the local elections as an EU citizen living here but not in the nationals. Although I don't feel I know enough about the Finnish political system to vote anyway.
I think if I was planning to ever live in the country again then I would want to keep voting, keep my hand in so to speak, but as i'm not planning on doing I don't see that it's really any of by business.
I do think that there ought to be some way that immigrants who have been living in the country for x amount of time and paying taxes for x amount of time should be given the right. It is very similar here in Finland, i can vote in the local elections but not in the nationals as I'm not a Finnish resident. Seems so silly when I am raising a family here and as a family we pay our taxes.
He does still vote? That's interesting. I'm so undecided about the whole thing. I'm not sure I even know enough about it and the policies etc.
it is crazy, isn't it? Seems like the system is really outdated and could do with a sensible eye. The fact that someone has lived in a country and payed taxes for x amount of time should give them some right as to how the country they live in and fund is run. Can you vote in the local elections there?
I can vote in city elections (for the mayor etc), but not state or general elections. According to European Law, I could apply for dual citizenship now, as I have lived in another EU country for more than 8 years, but they want a stupid amount of money for it. I would have a right to vote for everything if I did that though. But yes, as you say, I guess if I had to change the rules somehow, I would remove an expat's right to vote in their country of birth after a certain amount of time, and substitute it for one in their country of residence. Of course, if you returned to the UK, your right to vote would be reinstated.
That is interesting how they make the assembly only for people that still live there. it makes sense really. Although it should include people that aren't French but live there, in my opinion.
I don't know about the vote spoiling, although if i were going vote I would prefer it to actually have some weight, if you know what i mean.
it is a stupid system, if you contribute to the system you ought to have some say in how it is run. It makes no sense otherwise. Why should some lazy git who happily lives off the dole and sits around on his arse all day reading The Sun have a vote when people that work hard and contribute don't because of where they were born?
That's a good point, you do have a vested interest in how the country is run as it affects your business and so it's great that you do still have the right to vote, although do you think, all that aside for a minute, that it should be that way If could take away the personal and look at it as a system I mean. It makes little sense to me.
Yes, I agree. As an immigrant if you live there and pay taxes or are married to a British citizen then I think you ought to have a right to a vote.
That would be a fair system, I think. One vote for each person depending on where they live and how long they've lived there etc. that is interesting about it being 8 years before you can apply for citizenship. I wonder if it's the same here…I shall have to look into it. How much does it cost you, out of interest?
I'm pretty sure that that is the european rule, so it should be the same in Finland. The member states don't tend to publicise it much, but the law definitely exists. I think it would cost me about 300 € if I remember rightly.
Finding these things out is always difficult, sneaky sneaks that they are.
300€ does seem quite expensive though. Not sure I'd bother.
Yeah, it's purely the money keeping me from doing it, although I'd like to just on principle. Look into it though, it may be cheaper in Finland. 250€ of mine is an “administrative fee”, which I presume they have introduced to stop people just doing it for the laugh, so to speak. The other 50€ was the test thingy you have to do to get citizenship.
Yeah, it's purely the money keeping me from doing it, although I'd like to just on principle. Look into it though, it may be cheaper in Finland. 250€ of mine is an “administrative fee”, which I presume they have introduced to stop people just doing it for the laugh, so to speak. The other 50€ was the test thingy you have to do to get citizenship.
Sorry, logging into to Disqus appears to have published my comment twice, once here and once as a seperate comment!
I think you should vote, as long as you are on the same 'team' as me
Seriously, I guess that rescinding the vote from ex-pats might be a bit drastic if you were planning to come back. I know in countries such as Australia where it is compulsory to vote, all citizens have to vote wherever they are living in the world.
oh crikey, there's a test? *gulp*
Compulsory? Really? I didn't know that! I think maybe you should have the
option of switching your vote for the country in which you live or
something.
There is in Germany, again, that may be different from country to country. I've seen examples of the one here though, and if you've actually lived in the country and are integrated to a certain extent, you should be able to pass it with no worries. I know Britain has recently introduced citizenship tests too, but I don't think they have them everywhere. Again, it's just another hurdle that shouldn't be too hard to get past if you're serious about it.
Interesting post, Mediocre Mum mentioned this on twitter a couple of days ago. I definitely think that if you pay tax in this country you deserve a vote, after all, it's your money being spent.
When it comes to Ex-pats I'm not so sure, it's complicated. If you have family here or are planning to come back then you may want to vote and as a British citizen you have a right to say what happens in your home country.
When it comes to your vote, what you do with it is your decision. I'm a big believer that if you can vote, you should, no spoiling papers or making excuses, but I can see where you're coming from. If you have friends or family in the area where your vote would be counted maybe it would be worth asking them which party is best for that area?
It is quite complicated where expats are concerned. I think that maybe the
right to one vote would be the fairest. you could vote for either the
country you live or the one you are expatriated from. It's all academic
anyway,eh?
I would vote… but it was too late for me to return the forms on time with the verification of another British ex-pat. ho-hum. The reason I want to vote is the fact that my returning to the UK is potentially a reality. Not one I want to entertain, mind, but still a possibility. I have no idea when, it could be in 2 yrs,5yrs, 10yrs (or never), and the chances are that I may also have a family at that point with kids who need an education. Since I may return to live there I still think it matters how I vote now, the changes that are made at this point could still have an impact on what the country is like if I come back. Having said that, my old borough is conservative and has been since time began, so my voting which is usually not for the tories has never had an effect on the outcome. I guess that's why I wasn't all in a rush to sort the forms out.
I like the fact that I can sort of vote here. I really feel that long-term immigrants should have a say in how their country of residence is run, particularly if they pay taxes.
I think legal immigrants should have a right to vote, certainly. The problem is that once you begin living in another country, I'd imagine it's hard to get in touch with the local politics. I don't know how I feel about expats voting in a place they no longer live in……..that would sort of be like double dipping, wouldn't it? I don't know where I stand on that…..good question.
A difficult one. I think voting should be by right of residence – you're right that people who live somewhere, pay taxes etc. etc. should be the ones that decide on local issues, and who gets elected to try and solve them, but… since you have the opportunity to vote, I think you should use it – maybe you could hold a blog based vote and act on the majority vote – I'm only joking but if you have any knowledge of main political parties and what they stand for I think you should choose the one you sympathise with on a macro level and go with that… for what's it worth!
As an expat you lose your right to vote in UK elections when you've been out of the country for 15 years.
Scary thought, returning to the UK. I don't think I could do it. There are things I miss about the UK but I think the reality of life there would soon depress me after living here. Long term immigrants should certainly be able to vote, but as @vegemitevix said on twitter, a lot of the policies are on immigration matters, maybe they wouldn't want immigrants voting?
I hadn't realised that there were discrepancies like that – probably naively
Interesting issue about your vote – I'm usually rabid for people using theirs but it's a bit different for you
It's weird isn't it? i dont feel particularly comfortable with the idea of expats voting. I don't really know why but something about it doesnt sit right with me
ha ha ha, a blog based vote – that would be funny! lol Yeah, I still don't know, feels a bit like sticking my nose in where it has no right to be, you know?
Until this mornings vote on Twitter I hadn't realised it either. It seems so crazy and backwards. Yeah, I do vote in my local elections here in Finland, I believe in using your vote and yet i don't feel right about this one.
ahh, i didn't know that! It makes sense really although 15 years seems
quite a long time. When/if you move back do you get it back again?
There is a cut-off point for expats. I think it's 15 years, but by that time, I think I'd be too out of touch. I think 10 would be about right, or maybe 5.
And yes, if you pay taxes, you should be able to vote.
Or maybe you should get the right to switch to your new country after 5 years or something? that would be good. Not that you would be able to get that much cooperation between countries, mind.
Since you're from a commonwealth country you should be able to vote in the UK now that you're resident here. Unfortunately, since I'm American and clearly not from a commonwealth country, I have to wait until I obtain UK citizenship.
So many ex-pats here in the USA, including my hubby somehow missed out and lost their right to vote by proxy. And, then can't vote here as well as they don't have US citizenship. It's a tough place to be in … leaving your future in the hands of lord knows who.
Yeah, being without a vote anywhere, without any say at all, seems rather harsh.
If the powers that be have decided in their infinite wisdom that you have the right to vote then I think you should use it. Too many times the authorities deny us rights and freedoms… if they've given you one then grab it with both hands and vote with your conscience as you would do if you lived here. Simple.
Simple.
You've written 41 posts while I've been away!!! Sorry I can't catch up on them all, but this one was interesting. I was wondering about expats who have the vote. I kind of agree with your conclusion; if you pay taxes to the UK you should have a say in what happens to your money, but then again, if you choose to stay here you pay your taxes for the priveleges those taxes bring but may not have a right to have a say in how the country is run. As for expats, if you don't pay taxes then why should you have a say in how the country is run, but then again, if you are still a British Citizen, you should have a say. Yet I live here, pay taxes, am a British Citizen and have a vested interest in how the country is run and I don't know who to vote for. Oh, so complicated!
If you feel it will in any way achieve anything then go ahead and vote, however if like me you think its all a load of political bullshit then don't waste your time and energy and go find something better to do, like blogging or twitter or ummm blogging some more lol.
I'd reply to your reply to my comment, but for some reason, Disqus is being a hater.:( And I can't read the buttons to hit “reply”. Anyway, I don't actually feel too comfy with it either, partly because if you live somewhere else, you can't possible be connected to the needs of your former home, sorta. Does that make sense? It's hard to live in two places and be totally connected to each one. I'm originally from Wyoming, in the US. I now live in Texas. I am not even remotely connected to Wyoming, anymore. Even though it's my home state. I have NO idea of their current political situation, even though my entire family lives there and keeps me updated. I could never in good faith cast a vote in Wyoming elections from Texas.
it is confusing and complicated, isn't it? But I'm pretty sure that system
we have in place now, and it seems to be quite standard throughout the
world, isn't really fair. but then what about life is?
Exactly! It's just not my concern, nor the concern of anyone else that has
chosen to move away, anymore. I know there's a lot of expats that want to
keep the vote they have but I really dont think it's fair that they get to.
Why do they get to live somewhere else, not contribute to the country or
have to deal with living there etc, but still get a say in how it is run?
that statement probably wont make me any friends.
ack, no i do believe in voting! I think every vote is important and there is
no excuse for apathy, nothing will change if you dont step up and do your
bit. however I dont think that morally i have the right to step up and put
my 2p in when I am basically voting for other peoples future, not my own.
I think my husband should get a vote in Belgium. He's been living here for about seven years, speaks the language, works, pays taxes and social security, has a Belgian wife and Belgian children. I don't get that he doesn't get a say. He doesn't vote in the British elections, as he rightly doesn't feel it's much to do with him.
I agree, it's crazy that he doesn't get a say, he's member of the country
now, surely?
Have to say I'd rather not go back. The only thing I would go back for is the people i.e. my family and friends. I really really miss my family actually and never can find the time nor money to go back, maybe twice a year if that. It sucks that my holidays are spent racing round the country trying to fit people in. However, the thought of actually living in England again for good… rather not thanks.
I know what you mean there. I love visiting but yeah, i couldn't live there.
It sucks that the flights are so expensive .
I don't think that's such a bad line of thinking. It's a very conservative one, though. I mean, if they're not helping the country financially, and all their money is made and spent somewhere else because they live there, I just don't see why they'd retain a vote. I think it should be based on residency, not citizenship in the country. In Texas, I couldn't vote until I had 1 year of residency and could validate that with addressed bills.
If you/we were voting for a party, and a party alone, then I think you have every right to use your vote as an ex-pat but, like you mentioned, you have to vote for your local borough and especially as you haven't lived there for over 5 years then (without being nasty) I don't actually think you *do* have a right to vote.
Could you ask MrsW, Heather, et al who *they* would like vote for and off-set it that way????
On the other hand I have lived in the UK for almost 17 years, I'm married to a Brit and have two British children. I have always worked, generated income and paid my tax (and a lot as well), + VAT etc. I am not an economic migrant or seek political asylum and I am a EU citizen from a founder country, Italy. In spite of all this I don't have the right to vote at the UK general elections (I can vote at the Europeans and local, but who cares about them?). I wrote to my local MP (Conservative) but I didn't receive any answer. That's why if I could I'd support Nick Clegg. Britain needs some change and the two old parties have shown what they can (or rather cannot) do….Shalls we swap? Ciao. A.
it really is the most stupid system, isn't it? And the worst thing is that
if they did change the system to make more sense a large proportion of the
country (Daily Mail and Sun readers mostly) would be up in arms about the
whole thing. It all makes me very glad I've left.
I agree with you entirely, i don't feel that i have the right to vote. the way the system works seems so daft to me.
Well, I've been living in the UK for 13 years now. But I'm not a UK citizen, so don't have the right to vote. For the first few years, I did vote in German elections but for a long time I've felt that it's not right – so I no longer vote where I could vote and would really like to be able to vote in the General Elections. The election results will affect me, it's UK politics I care about, this is my home. Of course I could apply for citizenship and thus get the right to vote. It's a hard call though as it involves renouncing German citizenship and I still feel that doing that wouldn't be right either.
I guess at least I can vote for the Scottish Parliament and city council elections.
Still, I'd happily officially denounce my right to vote at German elections for the right to vote at UK elections.
Having not really looked into the whole becoming a Finnish citizen thing, I
didn't realise that you had to renounce your home country citizenship to get
it. Like you I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that but still think I ought
to have a right to vote here, and for you to vote there. It's all rather
daft, isn't it?
Gosh, I don't really know the answer to that. I think if someone had moved away and it had been 10 plus years then they shouldn't have a right to vote but I won't give my opinion on this.
As for me voting, I will be doing, because I'm pig sick of the way people moan about the country then say, “couldn't be bothered voting”. That's just wrong in my view.
CJ xx
As cartside above, I'd also happily waive the right to vote at the Italian general elections as they don't affect me any more, but I wouldn't renounce my being Italian as it is something I'll always be, but this doesn't affect me caring for the welfare of my adoptive country, Britain. A bit worried about the voting attitude of Daily Mail and Sun readers too, Heather! Hope you;re feeling better. Ciao. A.
I can vote in the US, where I haven't lived since I was 3, I can vote in provincial elections in Argentina, where I have been a permanent resident for just over a year, but I can't vote in Canada (my “home” country) unless I am physically there. If I could, I would vote in all three countries.
I think it makes sense to be able to vote where you live, but not because you pay taxes there. What if you don't pay taxes? What if you are unemployed or a SAHM or a student or retired? I think you still have a stake in the outcome of elections, and you still (most likely) contribute to your society in meaningful ways. So, for me, residency would be a good measure, rather than citizenship, or tax-paying.
Even though I haven't lived in the US since I was 3, I make a point of voting in their presidential elections. Even if you don't care about the local politics, in important 'central' countries like the US and the UK, you could vote based on foreign policy, immigration and environmental issues, which affect the world, including you.
you're right, nothing irritates me more than those that don't vote and then just moan about the way the country is
Residency would be the fairest way to do it, I agree. It seems so crazy that people that live in the country, contribute to it, often raise families there, aren't entitled to a say in the way it is run.
Hi heather, mi little take, I am Spanish and living in London. possibly expats should vote if coming back is an option and inmigrants should too because they live there. But what i always say, and sometimes is polemic is that to really have moral rights to vote you should know what you're talking about.
very few people know politics and we all can vote. That seems wrong to me. Democracy is awesome is theory but all the manipulation, politics gone marketing, patronising messages and deception comes from the fact that people that don't have a clue can yet vote….. I don't have a clue so I refrain…..
That is a very interesting point. In the day and age of spin, PR and image
marketting very few of us really 'know' what we are voting for when we do
vote. We're voting for an ideal, a bunch of empty promises a lot of the
time and we all too often don't really know what we are voting for.
Thanks Heather,
Not so polemic then. Once again I am very proud to be wise enough as to hold
off.
All the best
Xavi